Is stress and overwhelm making you feel like a slave to your business? Are you working hard… but it’s not just growing like you want it to?
In her conversation with special guest host Oscar Duran, Wendy Tadokoro of Organising Works says you can work less and make more money by implementing systems that anybody can use to run your business… and even take it to the next level.
You don’t have to have your hand on everything to be successful. In fact, says Wendy, when you do, it’s actually the biggest obstacle to growth.
Tune in for more details on that, as well as…
- Why many business owners are stuck in startup mode
- The importance of SOPs and how to implement them properly
- Being an engineer versus a captain of your “business ship”
- How to change your business culture to make systems work
- And more
Mentioned in this episode:
Osbert Duran: In this episode, we’re going to discuss the fastest and easiest way to create a business that works with or without you. We’re going to talk to an expert in systemizing who has found the solution to freedom in your business with a simple three-step process. This is P is for Profit.
Osbert: Welcome to P is for Profit. My name is Osbert Duran, and I along with the rest of The CFO Project team are very passionate about helping business owners improve the profitability of their business. Which is why today we have a special guest, Wendy. She is the founder and owner of Organizing Works. She’s been helping businesses and proven document systems for higher growth and higher profits. Wendy, we’re super excited to have you. Welcome to the show.
Wendy Tadokoro: Thank you, Osbert. I’m happy to be here.
Osbert: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think this is a very interesting topic. So I can’t wait to kind of jump right into it. But before we do, I always like to start off the shows or we’d like to start off the shows if you could just give us a little bit of intro about yourself. And maybe tell us a little bit how you kind of started the whole Organizing Works company.
A Natural Organizer
Wendy: Yes. Yeah, I’d love to share that with you. So it’s evolved quite a bit from when I first started out. So I’ll give you a bit of background. I’m actually a natural organizer. So I love structure. I love efficiency. And I say it’s in my DNA. So I’m always looking for things to do easier, faster. So when I decided to start my original consultancy, I became a professional organizer, specializing in organizing workplaces.
And I would spend a day or two helping small businesses and things like office organizing, filing, productivity and email management, that type of thing. So after a little while, I found that many If these businesses needed more than just an organized office, and before too long, what would happen was that their old habits would creep back in.
And so their nicely organized office soon went back to how it originally was. And I was only really given them as sort of a short time, a short term solution. And so I wanted to find a solution to help them more longer-term, to have a longer-term gain. And I realized what was missing was that they didn’t actually have a system for running their business. Not just for organizing their workplace, but they didn’t have a system to run their business. And I call that the missing manual.
They didn’t have anything around how they did things on a consistent basis. And talking of manuals, when I would ask them, Do you have anything written down on how you run your business, and they didn’t have anything at all. And so with my knowledge that I gained from working with small businesses on that level and also coming from a corporate background, I decided to find this solution to that I could take my knowledge of how it worked in the corporate world and then help business owners on that journey if you’d like to systemize their business.
So in corporate, when I worked in corporate, I would work in different branches from time to time. And we had, back then we had a handbook, a manual handbook that we used to use. It used to tell us everything, how to do, how to run our processes, for example, how to check in a customer, how to process a payment, those sorts of things.
And so when we serve the customer, it didn’t matter if I served a customer or somebody else in a different branch would serve that customer. They got exactly the same consistent service every single time. And so we didn’t often have to go back to management as well because we had the answers. We were able to find what we needed to do our job properly. So I find that these days is we have the technology at our fingertips.
And so it’s easier than ever to create standard operating procedures, but still very few business owners actually do it. And they see it as a very overwhelming, often a task that takes a long time and effort to do it. So that brings me back to how I wanted to help them to navigate through systemizing their business by giving them a step by step framework to follow. And so when you think of franchise businesses and corporate businesses, with, especially with a franchise, what you’re looking at is a business that almost comes with its own set of instructions.
And so that’s what we’re looking to create, a business that is easier to run. It’s easier to sell as well and to make it more attractive to a buyer. But it’s, also while you’re working in that business, you want to have a place that you enjoy going to work every day. We want to make life easier for the owner, for the team and for the customers. And so like I said before, there’s a lot of moving parts. There’s a lot of things that you, that go into that. It sounds like let’s just document our systems but there’s a lot of time and effort to go into that.
And often business owners will attempt it and not quite finish it because of the amount of work and not really have anything clear path to follow that. And another reason we want to systemize a business is, or why it’s a good idea is because, as we know, with books like the E Myth, we talk about business owners that are working very long hours in their business, and they are working in their daily operations or in the engine room of their business when they should be directing the ship and having the time to be able to do that in the business. And so that led me to create a system for helping small businesses.
Osbert: Okay, I mean, that’s a very interesting story. I know you said you have some background in corporate and then kind of relating that to what you do now and you’re, just your general passion for being an organized person. I think those are like the very two key strengths. And, you know, I have a little, I have background too in work in corporate and that’s one of the major things that was always focused on, right?
Do you have your standard operating procedures in place? Because I think a lot of times, you know, when there is transitioning, you know, somebody else needs to pick up what you were doing easily. So I’m actually curious, like, you know, you have a lot of clients and you work with many different businesses and different business types. What is the one thing that you kind of noticed right away from a lot of business owners that they’re struggling with? Or why do you think they kind of come to you initially?
Delegate Reproducible Tasks With Clear Instruction
Wendy: If we go back to the like the E Myth, a lot of business owners start a business being skilled at what they’re very good at but not having the knowledge of all the other areas of the business. So what they find themselves doing is just they are the business for a long period of time and they’re doing everything in the business. And that is the best way to start because you do have to have proven systems. You have to trial and error. You’re hustling, if you like, to get your business up and running. You’re trying different ways of marketing, advertising, sales, those sorts of things.
And that’s where your focus should be at that point. But then the next level is, so then to start to move yourself away from those roles. And so by putting systems in place, you can bring people in and you can delegate that work. And obviously, a way of delegating that is to have clear instructions so that one person can do it the same as somebody else. And I think that what they struggle with is they’re so busy that, you know, if your business is becoming, you’ve got some success in your business, you don’t find that time. You always think well, I’m gonna have time to, you know, work on my business for the rest of the time.
And I can grow and I can do all these other things. And I can go into new ventures, look at new systems, new products or services. But then what happens is the business gets busier, which is a good thing, but then you don’t transition away from that. You’re still doing it all, doing it all, and then it also becomes quite difficult to let go of that control because you feel that you’re the only one that can do it that way. And so that is one of the things that most business owners struggle with is letting go of that and making sure that someone else is going to follow those systems that you set up.
Osbert: Exactly. Yeah, that’s very interesting. And I think you’re kind of getting into something I want to talk about is the whole abdicate versus delegate. A lot of times, we work with the businesses and right, they’re trying to grow. But they struggle between these two. So maybe if you can kind of generally define both of those and then maybe let us know what they mean because I think they’re not as, at least the advocate thing is more newer terminology for me, so it’d be helpful.
Wendy: Yeah, okay. Advocating is just giving some responsibility or tasks to somebody and then really just letting them run with it and not following that up. So your first employee might be a contractor or it might be they help you with the books, you know, your bookkeeping, for example. And then you think, Oh, this is great. I can start to get some of this work off my plate and give it to other people to do but then you let them basically run that to their own devices.
And maybe they come up with a system if you haven’t given them a system to do some of that work. And then you start to lose that little bit of control. So that’s, advocating is just to give us give some someone something to do with really no instructions and letting them just go with that. And you can obviously run into some problems there.
They could have all that information in their head and then that’s not transparent within the business. And especially if you’re working in sort of finance, that you could obviously run into some, you know, more difficult problems later on when they’re sort of running your finances and you’re not all over that. So there’s a difference between supervising someone and monitoring them and giving them the space. And not to micromanage them.
We don’t want to do that. We have to find that balance between giving somebody something to do, a task and a responsibility and giving them clear instructions, but not just giving them the whole control and say you run with this, and that can lead you into further difficulties. So it’s, delegating is about giving somebody a system to follow with clear instructions and a clear outcome of that definition of what you want that outcome to be. And also delegating in such a way that you’re not sort of looking over their shoulder every couple of minutes. You should be able to with a documented system, somebody should be able to follow that.
Not taking away from on the job training or sort of having that connection with people, but being able to delegate something very clear, so that they’ve got those set of instructions that they can refer to when they need to, and that’s good delegation. And then making sure that you do the follow-ups and things get done. And also delegating the responsibility, not just the task. The responsibility is also to make sure that that task gets done when it should get done. So that’s the big the definition between the two.
Osbert: Okay. I think that’s very helpful. And then is there like a, do you think it’s, there’s too much delegating that you can do or they’re too little? I know, it’s, I assume it’s a balance or what are your advices on that?
Wendy: Yeah, it is a difficult one. It’s not so much that there’s too much or too little, what you need to work out is what you should be delegating. And that could be a lot, or it could be a few things. It all depends on what you’re doing. I think the first step would be to analyze your typical week in the business. I like to put things that you do into categories, breaking down the departments in your business.
And a very simple way of doing that is to simplify that, is to say, Well, how much time am I working on my business, so develop it, growing it, innovating it, how much time I working in the business, writing proposals, invoices, serving customers, that type of thing. And if you could break it down to another level as well, that helps with you to really define what you’re doing and so you can look back at that and see where you need to take some of that off your plate and delegate that. So I would say gradually delegate. Firstly, it depends what type of business you’re in, of course.
You may, if you’re a very small business, you might start off with a remote virtual assistant, for example. Otherwise, you might just bring some more team members into to do some admin work in the office or to serve customers depending what type of role you’re in. But you’ll be able to identify more and more that you can start to delegate and build like a job description out for those tasks. So start gradually and then build up those tasks that you can delegate.
And a lot of people feel that they can’t delegate things because it’s just too difficult or there’s too many variations. But there is a lot you can delegate. Maybe you can’t delegate every step in the process, but you can certainly delegate some of those sort of tasks that really, as long as somebody’s got a set of instructions they can follow. So you’ll be surprised what you can delegate but again, it comes back to identifying what it is and taking the time to then write those clear instructions so you can pass it over to somebody.
Osbert: Yeah, and I think you worded a very nicely when you said How much time do you spend in your business versus on your business. And I think it’s a very easy question to ask oneself to determine, like, how much is too much, right? So I like how you worded that. It’s very clear for kind of just leaving me to understand as well.
And I want to talk a little bit more of when you’re trying to kind of create these systems in place, I think it’s, and it’s one of your processes, right? To simplify. And I think that’s why it’s important, right? So can you explain why is it, I guess, it’s one of your first steps to the, you know, the three-step process to simplify something? So why is that very key?
Three-Step Simplification Process
Wendy: Yeah. So within those, there are really like three phases that you go through that obviously have some other underlying steps in there as well. And really even just the last step before simplifying, the start of that is to start to build that culture, it’s what I call it a systems culture, within your business. Yeah.
And so that’s around your mindset and your thinking, I think it goes to say with anything that you decide to implement in your business, whether it’s systems or anything else, whether you start a new marketing strategy, or whatever that is, you’ve got to have the right mindset behind that. And so, understanding or believing in what this, in this case, systemising your business will do for you is very important. You’ve got to be 100% behind that, and that’s what you want for your business because you need to bring your team in alignment with that and so that they will follow the processes.
And so that really comes from that starting point of having that systems mindset is really sort of having that first. And then the actual process, once, I mean, really, the mindset is a big piece of that. So once that you’ve got that commitment, and you’re starting to get your team on board, the next thing is to simplify as in breakdown what it is actually that goes on in your business and it’s really around looking at what you do, what your team does, and there’s various different ways you can do this.
But ultimately you’re building an inventory, or I call it a system infrastructure, of everything that goes on on your business on a weekly basis or monthly basis. That type of, we’re looking at the tasks that basically are recurring in your business regularly. And so I like to put those in, like into a plan, like into a spreadsheet.
So first of all, we’re breaking down. So we’re simplifying what it is that we’re actually going to be working on. And often the scope of that isn’t as bad as you think it is. Because we do have a lot of things that we do in our business on a day to day basis. But that doesn’t mean that we have to put a system around all of those. If you come up with a list and you go Wow, I’ve got, you know, 80 things I do in my business, it doesn’t mean that 80 things have to have a standard operating procedure written for them.
And so that just helps us to get some perspective into what we’re actually going to be doing in the business. So that’s the simplifying stage. Then we go on to the actual systemizing. So if we’re simplifying things as in, we know what we’re doing, we’ve identified those processes, we’re going to have a plan around that, because everything needs to be planned. Who does what by when? So we have timelines. And then the actual systemizing itself is around who, how are we going to write the documents? Who’s going to be doing that?
When we say documentation as well, I don’t want you to just think of, you know, Word document. We’re talking about interactive tools that we can use to capture is probably a better word that we like to use these days because we’re capturing that knowledge and we can use whichever format is going to suit that particular process or procedure the best way. So it may be a script, it may be a video. Yeah, it doesn’t have to be a step by step instruction, although often it is. And even if we do use more text-based,we can add so videos or images, diagrams, anything like that to actually get more engagement as well into those processes.
And obviously, to give more context as well around them. So that phase probably takes the longest because it depends on your business, how many systems you are going to document. And often you’re working with a team as well to do that. You might not just be one. There’s more stakeholders often in a process and so that can take time to get the team together and come up with a best practice. And all those things need to be planned and that’s the systemizing of it. And then you need to have a somewhere where you can put that, I call it a business operating system.
So somewhere online that’s central that keeps all your, we’ve been talking about processes, but it also will keep your things like your policy, your new team onboarding information, you’re welcome to the company documentation, possibly their HR or their employee handbook might go into there and training as well. Knowledge as well that you capture throughout the business, how it’s operating. That would go into there. So you need to build a central operating system that’s online.
Osbert: That’s a pretty good one.
Wendy: Yeah, absolutely. And then I’m just giving you a really quick overview on what the three steps are, so that the scaling is all around. Now you’ve got a lot of this, and I’m not going to say that it’s not a long, I’m sorry, it is a long process to do. And there is a lot of moving parts to it. Hence, I help businesses to navigate through that. But what that is going to do, it’s going to have a lot of, obviously implications, positive implications to the business and one of them is continuous improvement as well in the business.
So then you’re able to start to scale because you’ve got your systems, you’ve got them documented. And when I say scale that could be it could be growing the business as far as you might want to add an extra product or a service line. Or you may even want to duplicate your whole business and open up in another state and have the business run that way. So that work that you’ve done from the simplifying and systemizing that then allows you to scale.
Osbert: Yeah, and I think, I mean very good explained and by the way. Very clear. And ultimately to like just get into the scaling portion is a one of the biggest struggles to, we see from our end is they’ve gotten to a point where they’re kind of stuck and usually business owners feel overwhelmed because they’ve taken on, they’ve been so embedded into their own business, but they struggle.
And that’s one of the key things right, that we notice across is the whole, what systems do they have in place to keep them in track, keep organized and give them the ability to scale because ultimately, right, that’s what we’re, you know, we tried to do as well is help business owners kind of focus on what they were passionate about and started in the business from the first place. And right, not so much and stressing and having too much time spent like going back to how much time you spent on versus in the business.
So I think it’s very, you know, you touched on a lot of important key points. And, like, just want to focus to like, and the whole documenting side that I know, it may seem, you know, dreadful, but I think you brought in a lot of good points. And it doesn’t always have to be on white paper, you know? I feel like you can be creative, right?
Get the Team On Board
Wendy: Yes, and absolutely. And I think a lot of people say oh, systemising my business, It sounds very overwhelming. And it can be. It’s got a lot of parts to it. So I gave you a really quick overview, but within there obviously, there’s a lot of time and effort in there. So it’s really important to get your team on board if you have a team. And that’s another thing with the documentation is that don’t feel that as a business owner, you have to be doing all this yourself.
Obviously, if you’re a sole trader and you maybe have a VA, then a lot of that will fall on your shoulders, but even with a virtual assistant, I mean, get them to start to document their own processes as well. So if you train somebody on something, get them to write it down. Don’t feel that you’re the one that has to write it down. You may have the process in your head, but you may find somebody else that’s actually better at than conveying that into a process. And so finding somebody in your business, if you’ve got a bigger team, we’re looking for someone that really enjoys working in that, with that type of work.
Working, who’s got a good attention to detail that would enjoy working on that type of project. So a lot of people will not enjoy that and they’ll be the ones that say this is just extra work for me. So really important to get the team understanding that, yes, it’s a lot of work, but the benefits to the business and to them personally in their role as well is tenfold.
And if we can, I don’t like to say sell it to them, but if we can make it attractive as in letting them, or let them be aware of what the benefits are which there are so many benefits. We could talk about that for a long time. And them understanding how that’s going to help them in their role and help them if they need to train somebody else. And hopefully, they will transition one day out of their role into another role. And letting them, helping them to understand that we’ll get them on board.
And if you’ve got all your team on board, it’s going to make the process flow a lot smoother. So having somebody who can, so I suppose run with that project in the business and keep that going keep up the momentum is going to help the business owner. Because again, we don’t want to make the business owner more work, we actually want to alleviate some of that work. And so again, that comes back to delegating. So we’re looking for someone who is that systems-driven person in the business that will help to push that forward.
And they will also help with the documentation. They don’t necessarily have to be doing the documentation. So a good point to bring up here is that in, a good way of doing this is if you find somebody who’s a little bit resistant or a bit overwhelmed with how to document is to find somebody who can help them maybe in their own team that could say, interview them to extract it that way. So finding somebody who’s good at something and teaming them up with somebody who’s struggling with this will help that move along.
And really, really important as the business owner to provide them with the tools to do that. And so when I say tools, that’s maybe giving them a template they can use and giving them some tools online or in their screen. Giving them obviously, one resource is giving them the time outside of their daily workload, obviously, to work on this as well. So there’s a lot of different techniques and strategies that you can use to build this and get your team on board helping you to build these processes more gradually within the business.
Osbert: Right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, very good points that you hit on. And this is a perfect segue into, so I want to quote something that you had in one of your articles. And it’s by Benjamin Franklin. So it was the tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn. I think it’s, you know, I like the quote, by the way, a lot.
Just, you know, you could apply it personally and professionally. But I think that kind of goes over the whole onboarding, right? So maybe kind of, maybe we can go a little bit more into detail on why, I think onboarding can seem so simple. Maybe sometimes we know we overlook it sometimes. But why is it very important, that whole onboarding process?
Wendy: People want to do a good job for, they just want to do a good job in their business. And so it’s about giving them the resources for them to do that job. And they want to be involved. There are people out there that just want to go to work nine to five and have nothing else to do with the business, do what they need to do and go home. But most people want to have some challenges. They want to feel that they’ve got a voice in the business.
And so building, bringing them in as far as the I talked a little bit earlier about the vision, so bringing them into the vision, what are you trying to achieve as a business and so that they know where you’re heading so that you’re all rowing in the same direction heading for the same thing. And that’s so important about bringing them on board into this. And giving them those clear understanding of the benefits that it’s going to do.
And ultimately, any business that grows and makes more profit is going to be better for everybody for not just the business owner’s bank account, but it’s going to obviously help the team as well. And so it’s so important to bring them in on that, to bring them what I call getting them on board with what you’re doing in the business. And depending on how the business has been running, you will find some people a little bit resistant to that because I think with any change, not just with systemizing, any change to a business, people need to really understand the context what’s behind it and how that affects them personally.
And so being open with them, getting them involved in the discussions, getting them involved in their own documentation and whether you work with somebody outside the business as well that can help to move this forward. But so important to get them, their voice included, because they will often pick up a, say a bottleneck in a process, they will pick up something that, or an improvement. That’s what we want them to find.
And when you take the time to actually analyze your processes, that’s when you’ll pick up things and we’ll be asking those questions about why am I doing it this way? Is there a better way for me to do it? They can then, they have the opportunity to discuss that, have that sort of robust discussion with the, with other team members again come up with a consensus on this is the best way to do it. And that’s going to smooth things out again along the track. So you haven’t got all these different people doing it their own way because there is no unifying system.
And so if they feel that they’ve all had the input into that, then you’re going to get people more likely to follow it. That’s one of the big problems you find is that you do a lot of documentation, a lot of work and you get a lot of nodding heads, that everyone goes, Yeah, that sounds good to me. And then we’ve, that’s all forgotten and we are 12 months down the track. And, oh, what happened to that document that we wrote last year?
And as we know, things do change. And that’s a good thing. We need to embrace change because if we’re not growing, we’re dying. And so very important that we have these documents, living documents, and they’re updated. And when things change, they get changed. And so again, having people involved in that. If they’re not involved in that, we’re just going to, and if it’s not implemented correctly in the business, we’re going to have a situation where, as I said, down the track, these things are gathering dust. And nope, they were never used.
Osbert: Yeah, and I think, I mean, it’s very important. I think you really hit the point across where you’re not just bringing on people just to do the processes for the business but you’re bringing people who have the same vision as you do, who will help you because they will be involved in that process more than anyone.
And they’re going to the ones that are, you talked about the step is continuous improvement, which is very important in the growth stage or the scale stage. Sorry, correct me. But I think that’s very important, I think why the whole onboarding piece. It may seem small in the beginning, but I think it’s like you said, it’s a very, very important part.
Systemizing Your Business is a Process, Not a Project
Wendy: Yes. I don’t refer to systemizing your business as a project because a project has an end date. And so I suppose the bad news is that what you’re doing here is never going to end. So that’s why I said you need to embrace those changes. But it’s so worthwhile to do it because it is continuous improvement in your business. It never stops. Once you’ve started on this, you’re going to continually improve things as they go along. So there is a lot of work upfront which will obviously save If you time down the track with your, especially around your documentation, but there is, it is something that’s always happening in your business.
And that’s why, again, going back to that point of having someone that can help you to manage this within the business because there will be things that need to be constantly changed. But that means that you’re always aware of these things and I actually say that it should be an agenda item on your, say, your monthly management meetings. Systemizing, or the continuous improvement of your system should be an agenda item that is discussed regularly at team meetings.
Osbert: Yeah, that’s very true. If we look at some of the largest corporations, they never evolved or scaled without changing. I mean, they all had to change or adapt. You say, very well. So that’s very good
Wendy: It’s a process, not a project.
Osbert: Exactly. I like that too. Process, not a project. But I think that’s a perfect time to stop. I think we’ve talked a lot about really good key points and agenda items. Is there anything else that you’d like to add in terms of topics that you wanted to hit on?
Wendy: Yes, obviously, I know that there’s a lot of steps into there. But I have given you those overall, covered of yeah, what those things are. And having somebody in the business that can help you. And I think just making that start as well, thinking that, you know, well one day we’ll get to that. Well, you know, as we all know, one day never really comes.
And so, I think making a start on that having some support to carry that through, having a system to systemize your business is what you want to have in place. And then having people that can help you to manage that and continue that in the business update, anything that changes, and that will give you that real focus and be able to, like we mentioned, like pivot when you need to change and you can adapt things quickly.
And another thing that we haven’t really touched on is, it’s really important to once you’ve got some documenting systems and whether you map those on a video or whatever it is, you’ve got a record of those. And so when things start to go wrong, it’s much easier to find what went wrong. If a mistake happened, we can then go back and analyze the steps in the process and find out where we can tweak something, where we can make a change. And that’s really important as well.
So I just wanted to emphasize that. I mean, the benefits obviously outweigh the time and effort that it takes to do this. And I think just getting it started and knowing this is what you want for your business and that it is a fairly long haul, but with the right help, you can get this done. It doesn’t, you don’t tick the box that say it’s complete but you do get the box to say that I’ve implemented this in my business and these are the benefits I’m going to get from it.
For your team as well. And obviously helping you to remove yourself so that you can continue to do those things that most of us as entrepreneurs and business owners want to do other things as far as looking to other innovations, maybe they’ve got some side projects to do, just things that we never really get around to. And so this will obviously free some, that’s the key here as well will free up some of your time to be able to do those things that you’ve always wanted to do in your business.
Osbert: Right, right. Exactly. Well, you know, thank you so much for being here. And I just want to ask one last question is, where can people find you? That way they can connect and, you know, if they have any follow-ups.
Wendy: Yes, absolutely. So I can be found on Facebook and LinkedIn through my name. Also through the business. So my website is organisingworks.com.au, because I’m in Australia, so don’t forget the au on the end. But just with because I’m from Australia, we spell organizing with an S.
Osbert: Oh, interesting. Okay.
Wendy: Yeah. Organising with an S. I seem to, people seem to find me regardless of how they spell it. So you’re welcome to check out my website and reach me through there.
Osbert: Perfect. Okay, thank you. And everyone, I would like to thank Wendy for being here. If you would like to see if Wendy can help you with your business, please reach out. And I’ll put in all those info notes that Wendy just talked about in the show notes. Again, thank you so much for listening. And remember, the goal of your business should be to make more profit than last year and turn that into cash. Everyone, thank you for listening.