Welcome to the Escaping the Accountants Trap podcast. It's a podcast to help accountants, CPAs and bookkeepers escape what we call the accountant trap, where accountants are trading time for money. Well, how do you escape the trap? One way is the topic of today's episode, and that's by discussing the skills needed to offer advisory services and how to grow your firm through hiring best practices.

To help me with the discussion, I've invited Roger connect, the CEO of Universal Accounting Center, to the show. Roger, welcome. Happy to be here. This is going to be exciting. Thanks for the invite. Yes, absolutely. I mean, you know, we've we've known each other for a while now, and, and we were lucky enough to speak at one of your events, Grocon, that you have every year.

Thank you. And, your next event is next January in Jacksonville, which is close to where I live, actually. Meh meh meh meh meh okay, excellent. Well, that should be very exciting. Now, I think before we get started here, tell us a little bit about Universal Accounting Center, because you have a long you were telling me a couple of years ago that it started out as a local, you know, school essentially providing accounting services, and then it morphed to accounting on tape.

Right. And now you do all kinds of other things. Yeah. So you're giving quite a long history there. So again, more than 40 years ago, it started in 1979. And the founder of the company is Alf Bostrom. So the beginnings of the business was, as you mentioned, it was a classroom instruction type experience. You'd go into a classroom, as you would expect.

Traditionally to experience with the teacher, the desks, and you'd go through trainings and the campuses grew. We got to a point where we had 22 campuses around the United States, but the business model obviously evolved with the internet as it is now. We were able to transition into independent study curriculums a little bit more conducive to people's busy life schedules.

And so rather than having a structured classroom experience, as some of us may recall, when we were going to school, more and more people were more familiar with that independent study platform. And so we offered that. We give you the ability to do the trainings online. You still get the personal interaction. We have, study groups. We have assigned instructors to people, more or less tutors to the students as they go through the curriculum.

But we are a post-secondary school for accounting professionals, and that is our emphasis. We have a variety of courses that either obviously are hitting on each of those topics. Excellent. And the reason why I wanted to bring this up is because we have a very similar philosophy. And that and that you can you can have all the sort of the book knowledge of how to become a bookkeeper, an accountant, but you have to have this practical knowledge and an environment that, that that helps you actually understand what you're what you're doing.

And, and roll it out. And, you know, one of the topics I wanted to talk about today is your thoughts on what it would take, the skills needed to offer advisory services to these people who already trained to be a bookkeeper and are already trying to be an accountant, and then also we'll get into other skills needed to grow your firm.

But let me start there. Roger, what skills do you find that business that that accountants and bookkeepers who are already good at accounting and bookkeeping that they need to adopt and learn in order to become an advisor to businesses? It's going to be two things that I don't. I presume most of your listeners won't even expect to hear.

And I'm the first of all, say, a nurturing mindset and a curiosity for business. Those two things are what really make a great business coach. And that curiosity that I'm referring to is just that love of business. Tell me more about how you make money, what you're doing. Tell me about the processes involved and when you can go to a business owner and actually dive into what is making the business tick.

That's exciting. And it gets beyond the compliance, the county and the recording of the transactions, the tax. What we're talking about here is business at its core. And so that curiosity is very, very helpful. But it's the nurturing mindset. It's the idea that I'm going to be working with a business owner with the intent of helping them take their business and even themselves as leaders and improve, evolve, change, and actually go through an evolution that is different than just recording the financials, preparing the financials, helping the person be compliant.

This is so different. And when you're in that that advisory space, I feel that those two skill sets of being a nurturer and being curious really leverage, you know, the skills that you're alluding to that someone can get the two plus two equals four. Yeah. I agree, and to flesh that even more, you know, the I think the listeners need to to think through this that that I completely agree about the nurturing and being somebody that a business owner would want to talk to, because let's face it, not many business owners are, you know, waking up in the morning thinking, I can't wait to talk to my accountant today.

But if the account, it can be somebody like you're talking about, somebody that's nurturing, that cares that un that seeks to understand them, then they'll be somebody that they want to talk to. Oh, 100%. So there's an evolution that happens as you take on a client. So let me just kind of set the stage here. Let's imagine for your listeners that you're actually getting an engagement.

You're working with a business owner that has committed to. Yes, I'm going to engage with you as my advisor, and I'm not just looking for you to give me compliance work. I'm hoping that you're going to be able to educate me on how I can take my business to a whole new level. Well, the first part of that engagement is truly helping them feel as if they're in a safe space.

It's helping them recognize that I can be vulnerable here and talk about the things where I'm struggling in my business, both personally and professionally, personally, in the sense that am I coming as the business owner to the business in that way that I can lead and inspire those around me, that I can draw customers to the company, that I can inspire my employees to excel.

All those things are at that personal level on am I being that person that I can really be to take my business from a million to 5 million to 10 million to 50 million to 100 million? Am I that person? But the other part of it is, is am I willing to be vulnerable and share with this accountant the problems with my business model, the cash flow problems, the venture capital problems, the investor problems.

I'm dealing with issues that the accountant may not even notice in paper as as they look at the financial reports that we've been working on. So I need for the first month or two to help as I'm working with this business owner, for them to feel like I'm a confidant, a strategic, trusted advisor that they can kind of lean into and be vulnerable with.

That's not just done because they're paying me money and I'm now their business advisor. I have to understand that as a business coach, I've got to step into a role where they are willing to share with me things that they're not sharing with their spouses. They're not splitting was sharing with their business management team. They're not sharing with the investors.

They're not telling anyone. This is all in their head. It's that whole phrase of it's lonely at the top. This is the epitome of that. And what we're trying to do is, as business advisors in this engagement, help them basically open up and in a business way more or less allow us to be their therapist. Yeah, yeah. And I've been called a therapist before.

I'm one of a one of a meeting with a client that owned a large restoration company. After about an hour meeting with him, he said this is felt like a therapy session. Oh, yeah. And. Oh, yeah, and you're right. Government. Yeah. And that's I think that that I completely agree with what you're saying, because when you could connect with a prospect emotionally and they can feel that they can share with you things that they probably wouldn't share with most people, that is powerful.

They want that on a regular basis because there's not that many people in the business owners lives that they can really talk to that gets it, especially gets it from a from a business perspective, a numbers perspective. Yeah. There's two phrases that come to mind that I think illustrate. This one's a Covey ism. Stephen Covey, for those that are familiar, it's seek first to understand.

And it's this whole idea of nobody cares how much, you know, until they know how much you care. And that's the that's the essence of what we're trying to do as we begin the engagement. It's not technical stuff. It's not. It's not let's say the the business model. It's more let's talk at a very personal level and let's get to the root of everything going on.

And then the therapy concept, I mean, I've had conversations with clients that evolved into I'm having, you know, I'm getting divorced. My my spouse is cheating on me. I mean, how can a business owner be 100% there for the business when their personal life is dealing with things that draw them away from the company, and those things need to be addressed at some level.

Now, clearly they may need more professional help than I'm able to offer, but whether it's they're dealing with health related issues, parent issues, they're doing a children's issues, there's a variety of things that can impact their ability to focus on the company, and I want them to be open enough with me to say, yeah, I said, this is important.

And I was going to work on it last week and I was going to get this done. But they need to be comfortable enough to say to me, but this is what's distracting me. This is what's holding me back in the company. This is what's taking my time and attention away from the things that I'm telling you I need to be focused on.

So let's talk about then. Let's work this through. Let's get these things so that you can comfortably get back to what we're talking about, which is growing the business. Hey there Adam here. From the Escaping the Accountants Trap podcast, I'd like to personally invite you to a free masterclass that we're conducting this Thursday called How to Start a CFO service.

To register, just go to the CFO project.com and click Free Training at the top. See you then. Yeah, absolutely. And you're absolutely right. And accountants a lot of times have blinders on and say that I'm only going to talk about accounting things with my clients. Well, if the end goal is to help the client have a better business, then you need to eliminate all the roadblocks.

And there's a lot of roadblocks that have nothing to do with accounting and the business owners lives. And if you could be that person that understands all that, then you're you're be their trusted guide, their confidant. Like you said, I like that word and somebody that will help them grow their business. But, Roger, let me ask you this because I think there's a lot of people out there thinking, all right, I'm trained in bookkeeping or I'm trained in accounting.

I've done taxes for 20 years. I'm not this financial therapist. I'm not this confident. How can they get over this hurdle in their minds that they could become one? And what do they need to do to become one? Oh, I love that question. You know, this is something that I think a lot of people experience, and it's oftentimes described as imposter syndrome.

So those of that are familiar with the phrase, it's essentially how do I become or be something that I wonder whether or not people will challenge me and say, are you really? And am I comfortable in this skin? Well, for anyone that's just starting out, this is a natural thing. Everybody does something once for the first time. So, I mean, this is common.

But to answer your question, here's where I'm going to go. For somebody that has experience, having done 20 years, as you mentioned, of accounting, bookkeeping, tax, you actually get, I think, a sixth sense, a sixth sense for business and insights as to what businesses ought to be doing, that if you just could help the business owner maybe do this change or tweak within the organization, the company would be more profitable, more efficient, more valuable with their EBITDA and so forth.

But as accounting professionals were oftentimes very reluctant to divulge or share that information for a few reasons. One, we, especially the older individuals, may feel that in the accounting profession, in the boardroom, we don't speak unless spoken to, unless I'm asked. I don't need to divulge anything. I'm just here to give you the historical information. What you do with that moving forward is clearly someone else's information to do with here at the business table.

That's wrong. That is entirely wrong. We are, as accounting professionals, clearly able to step into that CFO role. And if we step into that CFO role, we need to be proactive, not reactive. And so to give the accountant permission, the voice to actually start having these conversations is very liberating. And it's basically helping. And this is where a lot of the training that I'm involved in with accounting professionals comes to play.

It's basically saying, you have a sixth sense. You have an insight that the others at the table may not have. You have a perspective. You have a knowledge of the numbers that others don't have. Speak up. You have insights to bring to the business model that literally could, in the next months, quarter year, change the trajectory of the business.

Start talking and sharing your insights. It doesn't necessarily mean you're going to make the decision or they're going to go with what you're saying. But the fact is, is you're now contributing at the table. So how do you get into that situation? And from a business advisory point of view, where you're a CFO and advisor, you're being paid for that input there.

There's soliciting it, they're paying for it. So by all means, let's get in there, have them pay you for this additional service that's beyond the bookkeeping, accounting and tax that you're providing. They're now paying you to ask these questions. And that's where I'm going to kind of end this little rant of mine by saying, A great advisor, a great business coach is defined by two things their ability to ask the right questions and their ability to hold the business owner accountable to the things they say they're going to do.

If you're as a business coach, stepping into that role of asking the right questions and holding them accountable, you can accelerate the success that your clients are experiencing as they implement various business strategies. Yeah, I love that. Do you do you feel that a lot of the reason why accountants are not speaking up, not only because they, they've been trained not to, but they underestimate what they know and they think everybody knows this.

Oh yeah I think that's natural. I mean we all we all assume. Well that's obvious right? Right. Why would I bring it up. Why why why would I point out the obvious? Know what? What you're thinking is obvious is only because you're seen in the corner of the room, and your perspective is different than everyone else in the room.

They're sitting in different parts of the room. So what they're seeing is totally different than what you're seeing. So the marketing person who has so much marketing experience and background, they're seeing opportunities as it relates to marketing the company, branding the company, all the different things that they can be doing to bring in more revenue. They're not looking at it from a cash flow perspective.

They're not looking at. So what you see as obvious is different than what the other person across the room may think is obvious and important for the business to do next. Yeah. And I would say to anybody listening, you'd be surprised. You try it. Just try sharing your point of view on something from your, your, your financial point of view to a business owner and just see the amazement in their eyes.

If you could explain what your point of view on something in a clear manner makes sense to the person, you'll be amazed at how welcoming they will find your voice. They want your input. They want your advice. They trust you. Already they do. I'm going to share two things as it relates to this. One is I'm amazed how often I have conversations where I start to ask questions and realize I'm not volunteering information.

I'm asking questions to cause them to ask back things right. There's a dialog here, so I'm asking questions about things that because they're stuck in the day to day of the business, they're not sitting down a week, a month, a quarter, and they're not thinking that far ahead or they're not seeing the correlations as to how this impacts receivables or payroll or maybe the operating expenses.

I'm coming in saying, by the way, if you buy that machine, how do you think this is going to impact you regarding this? Or, yeah, you're going to get that, but aren't you going to need to hire somebody to actually take that and now run it like, oh, I totally forgot. I mean, I have to have this payroll consequence, right?

So the point is, is just asking questions can oftentimes open up that dialog where you know something. You don't just want to vomit this information all over the person. You want to say, hey, by the way, I was noticing you're doing this and this is happening. What about this? And just start with a question, and that begins a conversation that makes it a lot more natural for you to start volunteering information.

But the second thing that I would, volunteer or that I would add to this, is how often I'm having conversations with accounting professionals where they already feel these kinds of conversations are happening with their clients. They already feel that they're receiving the compliance work, they're happy to get the financials. And there is the there are these occasional side conversations where they are getting into the advisory, the the coaching philosophy, but they're not getting paid for it.

It's not formalized. It's not something that's actually being done as a consistent thing. And the accountant is wondering, should I have charged for that? Shouldn't I have been paid for my expertise of 20 years of figuring out these things? And yes, I knew the answer, but wasn't that a valuable bit of information? I think clearly it's going to impact the business model.

So the accountant is seen. Okay, I'm I'm having these opportunities present themselves. I need to formalize that relationship and get an engagement and say that this is a separate service from what I'm already providing. And so that's the second thing is how do I do it? And then clearly how do I get paid for it? Yeah, absolutely. I had a guest on this podcast a couple of weeks ago that that gave a word picture that was that was very clearly, very clearly illustrated what you just said.

They said, imagine if you owned a retail store and a customer comes in and asks you something, asked you a question and said, oh, here it is, and then take a product off the shelf. It says, here's your answer and gives it to them. And the person walks out the door. You wouldn't do that. You would charge them for that thing.

You're taking off the shelf. But when accountants do it, they're giving away that product that, that, that inventory, if you will, all that intangible inventory all day long without paying for it. Why would why would you do that? And to add to your illustration there, yes, it's intangible, but imagine, even though you can't put your fingers on it, it took you 20 years of schooling education.

You probably did CPE training. You have work experience where you were able to go through and experience various situations over the years that you got this insight that's so valuable. What we're doing is we're now packaging that, we're labeling that. And to the packaging point, this is very important. The packaging becomes, I think a distinctive thing that we need to address here, because when I've gone through coaching with other coaches that I've paid for, I've experienced two types of experiences.

One is I'm paying someone for their expertise, and I'm not getting in a, let's say, a continuous way, kind of, a themed presentation of services, which is to say I meet with my coach, my coach, we have a conversation, we talk to a current situation. They give me some insights. In a way I go, but there was nothing, nothing deliberate or intentional about the trajectory of the conversation.

It was all situational. It was just, I'm going in, I'm just opening up, I'm sharing, and then I'm leaving with some insights based on their experience. Well, it's insightful, it's helpful. I am getting something that's actionable. But what I prefer, and this is what led me to provide the coaching that I offer, is when I teach, I want to say, look, I've got this program that it will take where you are today and put you 12 months from now in this type of a situation.

And we're going to we're going to specifically improve this, that and the other. And when you go through this experience with me, you're going to learn these things. So it's a very intentional program where I'm not just saying, hey, I'm wonderful, I'm great, I'm experience, meet with me. And on a monthly basis, I'll give you an hour of my time in exchange for you to bring up your problem.

And I'll just, in my wisdom, divulge something clearly valuable. I'm not trying to knock the fact that that wasn't helpful. What I am trying to say, though, is that when I'm trying to sell something, I'm not just wanting to sell some ethereal, hey, this is a great, you know, come meet with me and pay me money. I'm saying we're going to meet on a regular basis.

We're going to go through a particular process that I have defined that over the course of months, if not years. We're going to move you from A to Z, and your business is going to increase in value. We're going to help you with revenue. We're going to help you with this. And the business owner is going to go, I need that program.

I need to go through that system. I need to learn that process. And that's it's like reading a book. When I pick up a book, I'm not just reading a chapter for the sake of that insight. I'm reading it from the beginning to the end, believing that by the end I will have learned something practical. So that's that's just the the distinction there that I want to include now.

I love that it reminds me of that, that quote by the Harvard marketing professor. He said, people don't buy a quarter inch drill. They buy a quarter inch hole. Yes. And they go buy it at the store. The buy the drill they want what the drill provides, they want. The end result is which, you know, essentially what you're saying, people people don't just want to meet with accountants as their advisor just to meet.

They want what the accountant as their advisor will provide him in, which is, you know, helping them have a successful business. Yeah. I've had many a great conversation with someone, just a singular standalone discussion. I've had many of those. But what I'm paying for on a consistent basis is a journey. I'm looking for an experience. I'm looking for an end.

And so you're right. I want the whole. Yeah, absolutely. Hey, real quick, before, you know, it, just two more questions before we end up. I know we're running out of time. This has been a great episode. If somebody is listening and they're they're wanting to grow their firm to advisory services, but they're not really sure. The best way to train staff to either take off their take their existing workload of, of compliance and transactional, you know, bookkeeping or tax work and or take on advisory clients themselves.

How do you what what's some advice you would give to that practice owner. Oh, I love this question. So something that's very common obviously the owners of bookkeeping accounting, tax businesses do find themselves over time wanting to move into a different relationship with their clients, more into the CFO and advisory space, and they keep getting dragged back into bookkeeping.

I'm entering transactions. I'm meeting with my clients about the financials. What can I do to basically train and elevate my staff that they can be more involved in the compliance work, giving me the freedom to now meet with the higher paying client and actually have these more creative conversations. Well, how do you do that? Well, clearly what we do at Universal Accounting Center is we're a post-secondary school training your staff to step into those roles and have those skills and more importantly, being able to provide those services so that you can now move into that more CFO and advisory type space with your clients and letting this the compliance work, the tax work and such

be done by others in your firm. So if you're in a position where you're struggling to find competent individuals, we have, very distinct program for owners of firms to train your staff to bring on individuals with various skill sets and train them specifically to be professional bookkeepers, professional tax preparers. And so, yes, here at Universal Accounting Center, that's one of the things that we provide, is that ability for you to offer quality accounting services, with you being perhaps more in that CFO space.

Love it. And then that segue ways to my last question. If somebody is interested in that, where can they go? I would encourage you to, first of all, reach out to us at universal Accounting. There's a few things you can go to universal accounting school.com. It's there that we have a variety of programs, but specifically in the business accelerator section, it's in the navigation Business accelerator.

It's in one of the dropdowns. You'll actually notice that we have some tools there, one of which is to train your staff. And it's here we speak of what that program looks like and how you would actually integrate our curriculum into your firm and actually train your individuals to become certified as basically professional bookkeepers, tax preparers, and so forth.

So that's where you would go. I also have a variety of free resources at our site, universal accounting, dot com free resources for firm owners so that you can actually work on your business. Just a variety of tools there that I would encourage you to take advantage of, I love it. I highly recommend, checking universal accounting out.

I've sent people there to get bookkeeping and tax training. Roger, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a pleasure. I love our conversations. Adam. You're amazing. I love what you're doing with CFO project. And most importantly, I think what we're doing together as it relates to the accounting profession is much needed. I believe the business community out there needs this level of service.

So thank you for the opportunity to discuss it. Yeah, I agree, I appreciate you saying that. Yes. And to everyone listening or watching, thank you so much for spending the last few minutes with us as we discussed how to escape the accountants trap by and always remember, if it's about accounting, it's universal. Yeah. That's right, I love it.